Modernity Sucks

Suck My BRAAAM wrote: ↑Tue 1 May 2018 20:28 Interstellar had Kevin Kaska, Andrew Kinney, the Folwer brothers, Carl Rydlund, James Carlson, Chris Craker, Andrew Kawczynski and Steve Mazzaro. Stick to facts, not guess work.

1 producer, 5 orchestrators and 3 additional composers. You honestly though he wrote and orchestrated cues like Stay (that glorious ending) and Cornfield Chase all by himself?
(...)
Nice vision, insane enthusiasm and all the talent in the world to back him up. :)

DarkestShadow wrote: ↑Tue 1 May 2018 19:21 (only orchestrators and arrangers)

https://youtu.be/NtCiaJtmCE4

That's beautiful. Kudos to Nicholas Dodd.

I agree, that's brilliant. Loving this forum and all it represents.

24 years ago... It doesn't sound dated or corny at all , quite the contrary, you have all the elements of a true epic score: strong thematic material, presentation, development.

This new batch of film makers is too greedy to realize what they are missing. They want loud, cheap and fast to put an unnatural amount of crap out there (no wonder they all look and sound the same) and cash in on kids with short attention span.

Who will remember this super hero crap in a few years? Can you hum any music at all? All this technology, great visuals, and poor story telling + generic music... what a waste.

I mean I was completely ungrabbed by infinity wars... at this point I'm pretty sure it's also just directors asking for ambiguity compounding the problem

but honestly - orchestration is such an insane thing... that's why I want the most accurate template I can get - so that I can discover really cool textures on my own...

Sorry guys for destroying your idols but Alan Silvestri does not orchestrate anything ... look before back to the future what he was doing? Cheap synth scores.
He said in an interview before doing an orchestral score for BTTF, that he read a book on how to make a filmscore. yeah he read a book and can orchestrate in a few weeks a freakin' incredible soundtrack like Back to The Future ?

James Horner can orchestrate, but I heard from very close orchestrators that on a big amount of scores he just delivers a piano cue and ask the orchestrators to do everything behind.

So you see, it's not because James Newton Howard has only 2 orchestrators that they just orchestrate a fully written cue from a computer mockup , or from a reduced 8 staffs score.
Orchestrators, for these composers, are actually WRITING cues more than you think.

Hans Zimmer has just the honesty to credit his collaborators for what they truly do : additional music is writing cues , orchestrators are transcribing
computer mockups in Remote Control. Ask everybody working there and they will tell you that.

Orchestrators for "real composers" are orchestrating and writing at the same time. ( especially for Silvestri, Danny Elfman )

David Arnold ... thank you Nicholas Dodd



I will also add that when I listen to what the arrangers and orchestrators are doing SOLO , it really sucks and sounds completely bland . So maybe
these genius should stay behind a real composer like HZ..

Just listen to what Jim Dooley, KLaus Badelt, Conrad Pope Nicholas Dodd , Geoff Zanelli, etc... are doing when they compose solo... certainly sounds good, but nobody cares about these works.

And it's also very funny : when you're talking about a score like Backdraft : yeah it's 100 % Zimmer and badly orchestrated. The Final Game : ahm... no it's not Zimmer, it's too greatly orchestrated. Thin Red Line : hmm no , it's not him, it's Klaus. Crimson tide : yeah it's Zimmer. Interstellar.. no it's not Zimmer . Gladiator : yeah its Zimmer , it sounds bad. Kung Fu Panda : no it's not Zimmer...

on all of these projects : additional composers and huge amount of orchestrators are credited. The real answer is you don't know anything and are just guessing things.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 10:26 Hans Zimmer has just the honesty to credit his collaborators for what they truly do : additional music is writing cues , orchestrators are transcribing computer mockups in Remote Control.

Transcribing verbatim a score like Backdraft, yes probably...but not a score like A League of Their Own.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 10:26 Ask everybody working there and they will tell you that.

Hans's collaborators are full of crap, they would say anything to please their master hoping to work on the next blockbuster.

I don't give any credit to their words.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 10:26 And it's also very funny : when you're talking about a score like Backdraft : yeah it's 100 % Zimmer and badly orchestrated. The Final Game : ahm... no it's not Zimmer, it's too greatly orchestrated.

There is nothing funny here, it's pure logic. I'm talking about the orchestration not the music itself. I think HZ is the main composer.

Are you a composer ? Can I listen to your work ? because it seems to me, like most of VIC members, that you don't know what you are talking about.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 10:26 on all of these projects : additional composers and huge amount of orchestrators are credited. The real answer is you don't know anything and are just guessing things.

Credited means they don't even exist ? their contributions magically disappear because they are credited ?
Did you watch the video ? I have already answered this STUPID ARGUMENT .

There is a huge team behind HZ, credited or not, I don't give a shit : only ignorant blind fanboys could believe that a huge team has no consequences.

Add an avatar.

But Phil, one question.
Why do Zimmer needs to claim that he wrote every single notes on the final game if everyone is credited ?
What do you think this is all about ?
Everyone knows orchestrators are credited by Zimmer, but it's a cover.
It's called false humility.

I think if Zimmer would have responded to Sam "well Sam, we're a team at RC, so we're all a part of the result, I drove everything and wrote some or most of the themes , etc..." or even better "Sam you can think what you want".
That would have ended everything.
But instead, he said he wrote everything until that climax where he even claimed his 1992 mockup sounded better than the actual recording.
When you go all in like that, it's plain wrong.

The plot isn't about Hans qualities as a leader and great ideas on how things should blend together, no, the main problem is about Hans ego and his will to get rewarded for things he hasn't done.

"450 additional composers worked with me on this film ... you see, I'm transparent ...so, you have to believe me when I say that I wrote every single note..."

Though Headhshot's way of writing is a bit rude ("brut de décoffrage" we would say in french), and I totally understand his posts seem waaay too much energy for not that much (it gives me that impression), it's true that writing everything is not common practice in Hollywood (it would be interesting to get extensive statistics on this matter). So it seems legit to ask for some evidence, not against Zimmer in particular, but just based on this general statistical "unprobability" - and then, to judge who's right and who's wrong based on the evidence. I believe it has taken this WTF path partly because Headshot's style may seem arrogant and exaggerated sometimes (it doesn't mean it was his intention in the first place), partly because of HZ popularity,

So, I'm not here to judge who's right and who's wrong, but I find this discussion about orchestrators' work interesting, and would be glad if someone provided extensive statistics :-)

raphael.badawi wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:27 partly because Headshot's style may seem arrogant and exaggerated sometimes

It's true, but I was provocative because I don't like double standard. HZ allowed himself to insult a member for no reason (I will explain that later) and everyone applauded or remained silent.
Therefore, I consider my few sarcastic sentences as a "fair reward".

Anyway welcome and pleaaaaaase add an avatar ! (for the sake of clarity, to quicky identify who responds)

"I think if Zimmer would have responded to Sam "well Sam, we're a team at RC, so we're all a part of the result, I drove everything and wrote some or most of the themes , etc..." or even better "Sam you can think what you want"."

He actually said that on VI-C a long time ago. Telling that he wrote big suites and his additional music composers wrote scenes (using the big suite ) with Hans always supervising like a Dictator.


What I meant when I said that you don't know anything is simple : when you hear a HZ score that you consider well-orchestrated, you immediately say "no , that can't be the work of HZ" , and when you hear something you consider badly orchestrated "yup .. it's probably only Hans writing this piece" , I just want to say : how do you know ? and how is it possible ? do you mean orchestrators are sometime doing a shit job in orchestrating a mockup ? ;) You see, The Final Game cue has exactly the same team of orchestrators, Ladd Mcintosh, Bruce fowler, who both worked on nearly 25 years of HZ score.
Maybe there is a possibility that HZ actually wrote that big band piece with his little fingers on his old power-pc Mac with a 100 mhz cpu .. and that nearly 80 % of his arrangement got transcribed by Bruce Fowler , and yes Bruce probably arranged many things, but the way I see it is the following : Hans can't say "Yes Samy you're right, I just wrote a shitty mockup and Bruce did 90% of the orchestration" because that would diminish Hans Zimmer investment on this cue. We don't know how much work HZ did on the mockup because we never listened to it. And probably never ! ( can you recover something you did 25 years ago on very old machines? )


That's the problem when a composer doesnt orchestrate his cues by himself, anybody can have his own idea on the actual work. And guys like you Samy always think that the composer did nothing but a shitty 3 tracks mockup . We don't know what HZ did. Maybe he took 3 weeks to wrote that cue , with amazing details in the mockup ( HZ is a great sample programmer from what I heard) , and if that's the case, I understand why HZ publicly said in a forum that he wrote and arranged and orchestrated that cue. Because if he didnt say that, that would diminish his work to "zero" . We all know and even HZ admit it , he doesnt read score, so how can he possibly do his own orchestrations?
Maybe he should have used the term "I virtually-orchestrated that cue" ..

And you didn't answer about Alan Silvestri or James Horner asking their orchestrators to literally ghostwrite half of a score ? why so ?
I don't see why these guys should be considered like true composers while HZ , who credits everybody even the guy who makes coffee, get trashed .
How can you learn orchestration in a few weeks ? (Back To The Future is generally considered like a fucking beast in orchestration )

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:57 "I think if Zimmer would have responded to Sam "well Sam, we're a team at RC, so we're all a part of the result, I drove everything and wrote some or most of the themes , etc..." or even better "Sam you can think what you want"."

He actually said that on VI-C a long time ago. Telling that he wrote big suites and his additional music composers wrote scenes (using the big suite ) with Hans always supervising like a Dictator.

He didn't say that on the topic about "The final game". He said he wrote it all by himself and that his orchestrators just transcribed his ideas verbatim. It's the main problem.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:57 What I meant when I said that you don't know anything is simple : when you hear a HZ score that you consider well-orchestrated, you immediately say "no , that can't be the work of HZ" , and when you hear something you consider badly orchestrated "yup .. it's probably only Hans writing this piece" , I just want to say : how do you know ? and how is it possible ? do you mean orchestrators are sometime doing a shit job in orchestrating a mockup ? ;) You see, The Final Game cue has exactly the same team of orchestrators, Ladd Mcintosh, Bruce fowler, who both worked on nearly 25 years of HZ score.

It's not a question of good or bad orchestration, it's an aesthetic question. Backdraft isn't badly orchestrated, it's orchestrated regarding its own aesthetic which doesn't require extensive knowledge contrary to "A League of their own". The question isn't : is it a good or a bad orchestration ? The question is : is it easy or difficult? Does it need an extensive know-how (as explained in the video) ?

No it's not possible he orchestrated/arranged entirely this track cause he also said that he was a big band rookie, that big band was an alien culture for him and that Penny Marshall was crazy to call him for that. The result is very sophisticated and can't be done entirely by a man who has a limited jazz knowledge. I wrote music in this style and I can assure you it's by far, the most exhausting thing I've ever done.

go to 5m23s
https://youtu.be/9_luQsAe3DY?t=5m23s

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:57 Maybe there is a possibility that HZ actually wrote that big band piece with his little fingers on his old power-pc Mac with a 100 mhz cpu .. and that nearly 80 % of his arrangement got transcribed by Bruce Fowler , and yes Bruce probably arranged many things, but the way I see it is the following : Hans can't say "Yes Samy you're right, I just wrote a shitty mockup and Bruce did 90% of the orchestration" because that would diminish Hans Zimmer investment on this cue. We don't know how much work HZ did on the mockup because we never listened to it. And probably never ! ( can you recover something you did 25 years ago on very old machines? )

In 1992, you really think that you could make a mock up on that music? I mean, seriously? Even today, making a mock up of that score would be a nightmare so 26 years ago? I can't figure how it should have been done. The orchestration is way too subtle to have been made directly on computer, it looks like a very well crafted jazz arranger wrote it on paper and then they recorded it.

About the 80% or 90%, HZ said he did 100%.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:57 That's the problem when a composer doesnt orchestrate his cues by himself, anybody can have his own idea on the actual work. And guys like you Samy always think that the composer did nothing but a shitty 3 tracks mockup . We don't know what HZ did. Maybe he took 3 weeks to wrote that cue , with amazing details in the mockup ( HZ is a great sample programmer from what I heard) , and if that's the case, I understand why HZ publicly said in a forum that he wrote and arranged and orchestrated that cue. Because if he didnt say that, that would diminish his work to "zero" . We all know and even HZ admit it , he doesnt read score, so how can he possibly do his own orchestrations?
Maybe he should have used the term "I virtually-orchestrated that cue" ..

Samy didn't talk about shitty mock up, he just said he didn't believe HZ did it alone.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 13:57 And you didn't answer about Alan Silvestri or James Horner asking their orchestrators to literally ghostwrite half of a score ? why so ?
I don't see why these guys should be considered like true composers while HZ , who credits everybody even the guy who makes coffee, get trashed .
How can you learn orchestration in a few weeks ? (Back To The Future is generally considered like a fucking beast in orchestration )

It's not the subject. If you want to doubt about what Alan Silvestri or James Horner or anybody could do, be free. They didn't claim on a public forum they wrote one of their track all by themselves. Anyway they don't have a factory with dozens of collaborators and they don't invade all the "cinematic" space with their music.

The main point of that video is that we can't put aside the factory, the hudge amount of collaborators. This video isn't focused on "A league of their own" but on Hans ZImmer in general. When you want to know the true ability of a composer, it is insane to deny the official credits.

Honestly I don't see the problem with the factory .

A movie director doesnt create the set , makeup, sound, photography, script , all by himself..( only Stanley Kubrick did that in his early days.. ) yet he's the sole being credited as "the director" in the end credits roll
and in interviews, when talking about the movie you will hear "hey here's the new movie of Steven Spielberg" , not "hey here's the new movie by steven spielberg , the make up artist, the set decorator.."

Think of Hans as the director of the original score.

About that particular track, frankly if I was him and I worked days and night on that cue for weeks... I would also do that shortcut and say "I wrote it myself"
Orchestrating a very detailed mockup is not writing a track, it is orchestrating it . ( like I'm sure it was, HZ was a pioneer in sampling even in 1992 his mockups were really good, for that time )
Sure BF and LM helped materialize the big band sound , but they did not write the track .

Sure HZ should have said "i wrote that track" and not "I wrote AND orchestrated that track" , that's all..

He's certainly not putting aside collaborators . Being credited , well paid and for a lot of additional composers having their name on the cuesheet ( and getting performance royalties) is certainly enough. I want to know which composers credited as much their assistants and team as HZ ? now, in 2018, it's common practice, but in the 90s?

All the other "real" composers were just crediting their ghostwriters as "orchestrators" at the time , and didn't give them performance royalties , which you can imagine, are pretty huge on hollywood movies.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 16:27 Honestly I don't see the problem with the factory .

A movie director doesnt create the set , makeup, sound, photography, script , all by himself..( only Stanley Kubrick did that in his early days.. ) yet he's the sole being credited as "the director" in the end credits roll
and in interviews, when talking about the movie you will hear "hey here's the new movie of Steven Spielberg" , not "hey here's the new movie by steven spielberg , the make up artist, the set decorator.."

Think of Hans as the director of the original score.

I don't deny to Hans the right to say he created the track, I just don't trust that he did it all by himself just because he said so.

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 16:27 About that particular track, frankly if I was him and I worked days and night on that cue for weeks... I would also do that shortcut and say "I wrote it myself"
Orchestrating a very detailed mockup is not writing a track, it is orchestrating it . ( like I'm sure it was, HZ was a pioneer in sampling even in 1992 his mockups were really good, for that time )
Sure BF and LM helped materialize the big band sound , but they did not write the track .

How do you know ? Just because HZ claimed it ? And he could never lie ? Hmmm

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 16:27
Sure HZ should have said "i wrote that track" and not "I wrote AND orchestrated that track" , that's all..

He's certainly not putting aside collaborators . Being credited , well paid and for a lot of additional composers having their name on the cuesheet ( and getting performance royalties) is certainly enough. I want to know which composers credited as much their assistants and team as HZ ? now, in 2018, it's common practice, but in the 90s?

Again you miss the point. By saying he did it himself, he puts aside his collaborators. We're not talking about royalties or how his collaborators get treated. We're talking about who did what on "The Final Game" and about his statements on that track which are nonsense ("I did it alone", "Orchestrators just transcribed the music", "It's the reason why it's not so good"...).

phil_l wrote: ↑Wed 2 May 2018 16:27 All the other "real" composers were just crediting their ghostwriters as "orchestrators" at the time , and didn't give them performance royalties , which you can imagine, are pretty huge on hollywood movies.

Don't know who you're talking about but again, if you have some names and some scores to report, please create a topic, I would reply with pleasure.

Headshot wrote: ↑Tue 1 May 2018 19:47

DarkestShadow wrote: ↑Tue 1 May 2018 19:21 Officially Hans wrote Interstellar without any additional composers (only orchestrators and arrangers). And this is one of my absolute favorites.

The boundary between arrangement and additional music is easily crossed.

DarkestShadow wrote: ↑Tue 1 May 2018 19:21 (only orchestrators and arrangers).

Orchestrators and arrangers contribution are underestimated.

Who should be honored here, the composer or the orchestrator/arranger ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeoT66v4EHg

The contributions of orchestrators may be underestimated but that wouldn't have anything to do specifically with HZ but with any other composer as well. :) :)

Ah, the cat... Haha - I believe the composer and arranger/orchestrator are the same person (Mindaugas Piecaitis). :D The cat didn't really compose anything but played random lines and the composer wrote a wonderful piece around it that gives the illusion that the cat is leading the composition/performance.

If Hans came up with the Interstellar melodies and themes that's already enough for me. The arrangement actually in a way results out of this and is actually also rather simple, not like the CATcerto where orchestration and arrangement skills are showcased more strongly and driving the actual composition.