PART 04 - Where it all Started

[Headshot]

...but only HZ can be trashed because he uses orchestrators and credits arrangers and additional composers.

That's an unfair victimization.
The point of my video is not to trash HZ because he uses a lot of collaborators, but to answer to those who deny or minimize their contributions under the pretext that they are credited.

I don't care if other composers use ghost writers, that's not the point here.

[phil_l]

Well HZ is the only composer writing on a public forum ( while being the number 1 in demand film composer) , i'm really not sure you would have had the courage to attack publicly John Williams on VI-C if he wrote that he orchestrated star wars all by himself ( hello Herbert Spencer )

You don't like the Zimmer method so you felt you had the right to attack him publicly , you're a big fan of John Williams and i'm sure never would you have done the same with Johnny. That league of their own story was just a false pretext to attack mister Z

[Raph]

I like the Horner quotes. Seems legit given his talent he did provide the maximum he could given the deadlines, and if he gave piano lines, I believe it to be a very rare phenomenon, and with clear indications about what he wanted the orchestrators to do. (I also like the UCLA trivias :-D )

Concerning Zimmer, don't see the problem asking proof about something with a low probability like "a cue making it to the movie without orchestrators touching it". It's more about how you ask for it, and I do believe that with a different tone (and not so much insistance), the output would have been very different.

I find it interesting the way you describe HZ's workflow since the 2000s like "reproducing the mockup". HZ himself has difficulties reproducing the textures he has in mind with mockups. This "I have something precise in mind" is the reason he composes impossible spaces, doesn't separate instruments from the spaces they play in, and I wouldn't be surprised he gives orchestrators instructions about how to make something closer to what he has in mind than the mockup. Like layering with samples and that kind of shit. It's an audacious endeavour; I respect that, admire the engineering virtuosity of it, although I prefer traditional orchestral stuff aesthetically.

Seems also legit to state that orchestrators can do very little, or enormous amount of work, depending on the project, the deadline, the composer, and the team.

[Headshot]

i'm really not sure you would have had the courage to attack publicly John Williams on VI-C

You are wrong. I hate blind fanaticism. But I see no reason to challenge Williams because there is absolutely no doubt concerning his skills.

You don't like the Zimmer method so you felt you had the right to attack him publicly

I challenged HZ because he said something unbelievable to me.
Challenging or questioning someone is not a personal attack.

[FriFlo]

I totally agree with the notion that HZ couldn’t do what he does without his collaborators. I even saw from a famous orchestrator a cue that was orchestra with Bigband and just as complex as the mentioned example. The thing that was provided by HZ was a simple tune with basic harmonics laid out. The instruction was ‘just do the thing you are good at to fit that to the scene’! There was not even a piano layout for the arrangement and the tune was - well - let’s say simple, which is not bad in itself, but it became a terrific piece of scoring that only people with great skills can achieve. The credit was orchestrator, not even arranger or additional composer. All of this is legal in the US. I do not have any doubt that there are a great many other composers who work like that occasionally or regularly. At least, some of them have the decency not to boast how they did everything by themselves.
Hollywood is a snake pit and it’s all about money, power and influence. I certainly have no naive ideas that it really is about art. It’s all commercial and only a very few beacons of light stand out.
As to wether I think this forum and Samy’s videos and texts are capapble of doing any good about it: I am torn and unsure as I said before.
It is hard to really prove anything like that matter with hard facts. Don’t get me wrong: I personally have little doubt that the arrangements in the mentioned score are NOT a verbatim translation of a 1992 midi mock-up! And I asked HZ in the very same thread, if he really thought of his collaborators that lowly. I tried to phrase that politely by mentioning that this did not seem like him, who usually spoke rather kindly about his collaborators. He did not reply to that. Personally, I stopped at this point. But I didn’t get banned from the forum! Yet, I saw The banishment of headshot unjust and voiced my opinion in an off topic thread. The result was that my IP got on a black list back then and from that day on the VI-C site loaded painstakingly slow, so that it was basically impossible to read anything there. That meant my perception of the forum and the former owner drastically decreased. I think Mike Greene does a way better job, now, although I don’t fool myself: VI-Control is a commercial endeavor and by no means a passion project just for the sake of people helping out each other. I guess, that is just how our world works, so there is not anything wrong about that. But even Mike Greene is not totally immune against double standards: Everybody else would have at least gotten a warning for calling another member a twat. HZ sure didn’t! :-) Again, this is where I cannot keep my mouth shut and mention it. But I will leave it there, as I can’t see much good coming from arguing about it any longer.
Finally, I think it is a good thing that there are folks like Samy, who just cannot let it rest, if they see some injustice that is ignored by a majority. I respect his determination on that matter and find it healthy for a society to have people like that. I do not share his views in everything and probably wouldn’t go as far, but I will stick my head out that far, that I enjoy what he did here for the most part and will continue to participate in this forum as it is actually a nice counterpoint to the increasingly stupid conversations on VI-Control and other big music forums. I Just hope we will settle this HZ topic and all negativity in hopefully a short amount of time and focus on constructive topics more.

[phil_l]

So, these orchestrators can’t have their own solo project or don’t show their interest in scoring a movie all by themselves but suddenly transform into genius of scoring when HZ gives them 8 bars of melody ? Interesting. The paycheck must be very good

[Headshot]

So, these orchestrators can’t have their own solo project or don’t show their interest in scoring a movie all by themselves but suddenly transform into genius of scoring when HZ gives them 8 bars of melody ? Interesting. The paycheck must be very good

Why did you "ignore" this ? :

I even saw from a famous orchestrator a cue that was orchestra with Bigband and just as complex as the mentioned example. The thing that was provided by HZ was a simple tune with basic harmonics laid out. The instruction was ‘just do the thing you are good at to fit that to the scene’! There was not even a piano layout for the arrangement and the tune was - well - let’s say simple, which is not bad in itself, but it became a terrific piece of scoring that only people with great skills can achieve. The credit was orchestrator, not even arranger or additional composer.

Don't you think it deserves reflection ? instead of pivoting to another subject...because no one said that HZ has no talent or do nothing.

So please, stay focused on the subject : what would HZ be able to do alone ? That's finally the main question.

And don't underestimate the PAWA of a good orchestration/arrangement.

[phil_l]

Alone , completely alone , Hans would make Rain Man , oscar nominated score . He would also make day one main theme of interstellar ( this track is widely regarded as a masterpiece )
There are many examples but just these two ..when Headshot makes something as iconic as Rain Man or interstellar main theme ...it’s easy to channel John Williams Star Wars music in a teaser but to create your own style is another thing

[Headshot]

Alone , completely alone , Hans would make Rain Man , oscar nominated score

Yes, but the Oscars have nothing to do with the writing level.

when Headshot makes something as iconic as Rain Man or interstellar main theme ...it’s easy to channel John Williams Star Wars music in a teaser but to create your own style is another thing

Yes, but our matter is not about me or about what I'm able to do.
You can't make a point by "denigrate" me, please just stay focused on the subject.

So, you admit that HZ is certainly not able to create a complex symphonic score alone ?

[Suck My BRAAAM]

Alone , completely alone , Hans would make Rain Man , oscar nominated score . He would also make day one main theme of interstellar ( this track is widely regarded as a masterpiece )
There are many examples but just these two ..when Headshot makes something as iconic as Rain Man or interstellar main theme ...it’s easy to channel John Williams Star Wars music in a teaser but to create your own style is another thing

Interstellar had Kevin Kaska, Andrew Kinney, the Folwer brothers, Carl Rydlund, James Carlson, Chris Craker, Andrew Kawczynski and Steve Mazzaro.

1 producer, 5 orchestrators and 3 additional composers. Far from Alone lol

And who gives a fuck about Oscars? Those are the same people who a few years before gave Herbie an Oscar for Round Midnight. Greatest joke ever!

[Kyle Judkins]

I absolutely think John Williams is not above being challenged... that's like saying you wouldn't arrest Jon Stewart for raping a child... it's not an example of double standard, it's simply a scenario that has never and probably will never come up, so there's no way to prove that it would never happen...

And it would be painfully ironic to accuse John Williams if not orchestrating his own stuff, considering the man was an orchestrator early on in his career

The man has proved his capabilities for decades, if he made a well-produced DubStep track and said he did it on his own, I would be pretty damn skeptical of it

[Headshot]

The man has proved his capabilities for decades, if he made a well-produced DubStep track and said he did it on his own, I would be pretty damn skeptical of it

It's really fun because that's exactly the example I used in one of my next videos :

[Kyle Judkins]

hahahahahaha

[Kyle Judkins]

the only time in the future John Williams will be saying "I think we got another banger" is when he's checking out old ladies in the nursing home.

[DarkestShadow]

3 additional composers.

Source please.